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Post by Pete Hurrikane on Apr 19, 2012 7:31:41 GMT -5
'Outside-in' and 'inside-out' refers to how a skill is learned.
'Outside-in': We look at a student as being an empty vessel and fill that student with info about how to swing, disregarding anything that might already be in there. This would mean refusal to compare golf to previously learned skills.
'Inside-out': We look at the student as having experience of motor skills and nurture these skills to help advance learning and development of the golf swing.
The widespread form of teaching in golf is more inclined to fill a student with data and disregard what's already in there.
All human beings have however used the 'inside-out' version for learning all of the other motor skills. It's an amazing and highly developed learning system, which is the product of millions of years of evolution.
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Post by davetrx on Apr 20, 2012 7:22:57 GMT -5
I tried your version first. In fact, three instructors used something similar to that theory. It did not work at all. I could perhaps hit some decent shots in the lesson, then regress the next day and not figure out what I was doing wrong.
After a couple of lessons using video and detailed analysis, my slice was history.
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Post by Pete Hurrikane on Apr 20, 2012 7:52:43 GMT -5
Hi Dave,
Its not my version, its the 'inside-out' or the highly developed learning system, a product of millions of years of evolution. It worked for you as a child but unfortunately was badly received as an adult. This isn't uncommon.
Three 'inside-out' coaches who couldn't cure your slice. Sorry I can't accept that especially as you are using it as a conclusion to your argument and suggesting that 'inside-out' doesn't work for golf. I could say I have cured 100 out of 100 slicers with this method, doesn't make it fact though, just an statement with no substance.
In my experience, people who learn with this method rarely regress, they do tend to diverse though and require to be put back on track. They are being contaminated by the widespread 'outside-in' methods coming at them from all sides.
Every one seems to be telling two stories, they claim to be delighted with the present method of coaching when they in these sorts of discussions but at the same time I hear them also saying that most golf instructors suck.
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Post by topcat on Apr 20, 2012 8:01:25 GMT -5
Hey GoGolfers, I just wanted to share what i realized about swing information, all these theories, ball flight laws and all that other information. I use my experience and compare it to my brother, because we were both top 5 in the world in our age groups from 2005-2009 and he has kinda maintained his level whereas i have dropped so bad and my game is so screwed up now. The difference between us is our work ethic, style of golf.. My approach is the technical guy, the guy who hits more than a thousand balls a day struggling to regain my old form, my natural ability. Basically, the more screwed up mind filled with all this information since working with a golf digest top 10 teacher since june 2010, which is where my game immediately went to hell. My last tournament before changing to that coach was a 73,72 at 13 years old. not great, but reasonable i guess. I used to have one swing thought, from when i was 8 all the way till 13 and a half. JUST FEEL A MORE OUTSIDE path on the downswing since i used to drop it in. My brother just turned 13, and his swing is defenitely considered home made, but at impact he has pure fwd shaft lean etc. He grips and rips, and is able to make simple adjustments to help himself since he developed the fixes. I used to be like that, but when i went to my supposedly great coach to try and find the secret i thought legendary coaches have, he changed my swing completely, from posture, to ball position, to takeaway(keep hands in club out), to crossing the line at the top, to having a foot roll to start down, lateral knee movement, thigh rotation, bowed left knee at impact, inside downswing keeping the hands close to the right hip then using my left forearm to roll it over. Yes! I spent a year and a half dedicated to work on these things and not worry about score. A couple months ago, i had a lesson with the coach and on camera i had nailed basically every position/sequence we talked about.. But one problem, the actually ball flight!!! I couldnt predict the trajectory or curve, my starting lines were off, and i hit it short, an felt hip and lower back pain frequently. i had a plethora of knowledge, his philosophy, ball flight crap after looking at it on trackman at the kingdom(i get free stuff from tm and do fittings at the kigdom which is why i was there) but i lost my own feels. The feels that got me good, probabaly top 2 in terms of ball striking and distance. I couldnt find a fix to help my swing, i lost my go to fade and stinger, and lost clubhead speed. My mind also lost confidence, a vital part of golf. My brother sucked for a while trying to change his swing with this coach, but he was smart enough to stop listening very quickly, and basically figure out his own do's and dont's. Im only 15 and know ill get back up there, but i just wanted to share my experience with being technical, knowing this and that, looking at nicklaus footage etc. and becoming technical,losing the point of golf(scoring), losing my own swing and having what my coach thought was best. All it was was a major set back, waste of time, money. Now ive found a new coach to help simplify my game again. Please dont get into trackman stuff, stack and tilt, gurus crap. They know a lot about the swing, but can it really help you personally? Is it efficient, effective, and possible to do?  No, of course not. thats why noone actually improves! Technical bs, just find your own personal feels guys! Thanks for reading!! |
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Post by Andrew PGA on Apr 20, 2012 8:09:05 GMT -5
TopCat, I was nearly a PGA Tour level golfer and I worked with a few of the biggest names in golf instruction,
Fast forward and I had trouble breaking 80 at times...and had to dig out the right info on my own. I am now trying to help people learn from my mistakes.
You have to find the right info and how an instructor is rated has very little bearing on what info they promote or how well they teach.
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Post by topcat on Apr 20, 2012 8:12:07 GMT -5
TopCat, I was nearly a PGA Tour level golfer and I worked with a few of the biggest names in golf instruction, Fast forward and I had trouble breaking 80 at times...and had to dig out the right info on my own. I am now trying to help people learn from my mistakes. You have to find the right info and how an instructor is rated has very little bearing on what info they promote or how well they teach. Yup your right Mr. Andrew. Man it feels like crap losing your game. When i was 11, i won my club championship( lived in hong kong), 71,75 and the won my matchplay matches. from 6900 yards par 71Now if i go play there at 15 i probably cant shoot those numbers. Theres this tournament in junior golf called US Kids world golf championship. My record there.. 4th, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 79th lol. Where do you teach? Im in san Diego. |
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Post by Andrew PGA on Apr 20, 2012 8:15:52 GMT -5
Just 30 miles up the 5 freeway from SD.
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Post by Pete Hurrikane on Apr 20, 2012 8:22:59 GMT -5
Hi TC,
I came across your post and I think you have learned a very good lesson early in your golfing career. I have been playing the game for over 40 years and although I was a good scratch amateur, I was never good enough to be a tour player. My daughter like you was also a very good junior player - 4 handicap at 12 y.o. - but she didn't have your dedication and now 17, she plays about six times a season but still managed 75, 73 in her 2011 club championship.
The main problem for golfers, with the 'technical bs' around today, is using too much conscious control over the bio-mechanics of the swing. Golf is first and foremost a motor skill, or more accurately a mixture or amalgamation of various fine and gross motor skills. Now, its a fact that most motor skills are carried out with around 10% conscious control and 90% subconscious.
You probably followed the directives of the OBFL when you first started playing but with your exposure to Trackman have learned that the NBFL are more accurate. But these scientific geniuses, using the logic of micro-scientific discoveries, have inadvertently tipped the conscious/subconscious ratios too much. From what you said about that top 10 coach, he also seems to have had you too much in your head during the swing.
I think I read that you lived in California, I believe you would benefit greatly if you could somehow get involved with Fred Shoemaker. Nobody to my knowledge could get you back to your roots better than him. Fred uses 'inside-out' coaching as opposed to 'outside-in' and I believe that's exactly what you need. 'Outside-in' and 'inside-out' refers to how a skill is learned.
The widespread form of teaching in golf is more inclined to fill a student with data and disregard what's already in there (outside-in). All human beings have however used the 'inside-out' version for learning all of the other motor skills. It's an amazing and highly developed learning system, which is the product of millions of years of evolution.
There is a second reason I would suggest Fred and that is he uses another very effective teaching/learning tool. You may have heard of non-judgemental feedback so I will not explain it yet but I believe this is probably the most effective learning tool that is being used by coaches today. If you like I will expand on this with another message.
You're probably wondering why I am promoting Fred. I am not involved or even in contact with him but I have read his two books and use his methods in my own teaching. I understood the passionate message of your post and linked it with California and that's how I got there.
I hope you are on the right path now and getting back to a more subconsciously controlled game.
Pete
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Post by topcat on Apr 20, 2012 8:28:25 GMT -5
Hi Pete, thanks for the message. You are absolutely right. I was a natural swinger and then the top 10 coach got me thinking and trying to nail different positions and sequences as if I had a bad swing... All I told him was to make sure I don't drop my path too far in. I started Playing super conscious golf... Even in tournaments and stuff. I quit it with him a few months ago and actually started working with a guy here in San Diego to try and first fix the bad habits I got from Mr.TopTen but in a way just simplify everything so that when I practice technique I am working on something simple and effective, but when I go on the course just use my reliable feels. I think I'll stick with him for now but thanks for suggesting Fred. The inside out teaching concept will definitely be more effective. Thanks again!
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No, of course not. thats why noone actually improves! Technical bs, just find your own personal feels guys! Thanks for reading!!